Ruchika Malhotra is a keynote speaker, inclusion strategist, and the bestselling author of Inclusion on Purpose—an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. She is also the founder of the inclusion strategy practice CANDOR.
Amalia and Ruchika chat about individuals being made up of a multitude of identities, battling the underestimations of others, and how western feminism hasn’t given us that promised liberation.
They also discuss how Ruchika started her career in the “overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly male” journalism industry and Ruchika shares her many experiences of having her name deliberately mispronounced or being ignored by coworkers due to the way she looks.
Key Takeaways:
Learn more about Ruchika and her book here: https://www.ruchika.co/
Ruchika:[00:00:00] I remember talking to a public company CEO who was a Black woman who is now retired who talked about the time like she took the company private jet. She was in her business suit. She was getting off at her destination and people thought she was the airline stewardess. That's what we're up against.
Amalia:My name is Amalia Martino and welcome to The Whole Damn Pie. My guest today is author, keynote speaker, and inclusion strategist, Ruchika Malhotra. Ruchika is the bestselling author of Inclusion on Purpose, an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. She is also the founder of CANDOR, an inclusion strategy practice.
A former international business journalist, Ruchika is a regular contributor to the New York Times and Harvard Business Review and a recognized media expert on [00:01:00] inclusive leadership and workplace culture.
Welcome to the show, Ruchika.
Ruchika:Thank you so much for having me.
Amalia:We're going to get to your name because I love to talk names. And, like, the root of names and the meaning of names, and I think they're so important. But I want to start with the meaning of the whole damn pie, because to me, it's all about, well, it changes for me from day to day. For me, the whole damn pie means really having agency over my life, having the freedom and privilege to make decisions about how I spend my time and where I spend my time and to have that fulfilled balance that's so elusive between profession and family and all the things. But when you hear the term whole damn pie, what does it mean to you?
Ruchika:That is such a good question because I'm kind of grappling with this a little bit. So because we're made up of a multitude of identities, of course, there's a part of me [00:02:00] that's, you know, a woman of color, a mom, you know, working in the equity and social justice space. So, the whole damn pie means I deserve all the things, right? Like I have been, people like me and people in my community have been systematically denied a lot of the pie, essentially, and we deserve all of it.
But then, in fact, like it was meant to be, the algorithms showed me this video of Felicia Hatcher, who is an incredible speaker leader, and she said, her mentor essentially said like this idea of having the whole pie, and isn't what we should aspire to. We should actually aspire to a garden. I'm not asking you, by the way, to change the name of your podcast, but it's this idea that when you aspire to the whole damn pie, then it's very much about feeding you and yourself.
When you feed from the garden, you replant seeds, right? Like it's this whole ecosystem where it's not just about you and yourself. [00:03:00] Getting, getting some, like, I want both things to be true. Like, I want to live this incredible life where as a mom, as a business owner, like all the things, you know, I get all the joy and have everything that really sustains me to keep on giving because I know that I give to so many communities and so many people in my life.
And there's a part of me that really resonates with this sort of garden analogy and, like, moving away from, like, what do I have for myself versus what can we create for all of us to be sustained?
Amalia:Ooh, I like it. It's something I also grapple with. There's some times where I feel like I really need to pour more into myself and that can instinctively feel really selfish. I also know, you know, I need to take care of myself before I can take care of others, but I also want to be really cognizant that I'm coming from a place of privilege to even have time to take care of myself. [00:04:00] So I love this idea of the garden. I think that's beautiful.
Ruchika:Thank you. I mean, again, I want both things to be true because in so much of my work, it's around people, specifically women and women of color and people with other intersectionally marginalized identities denied the opportunity to live like those full rich lives, right?
Like I studied colonialism. I've studied like all these systems of oppression. Even now in the workplace, when we look at late-stage capitalism, that has essentially told people, like, you are not worthy of deserving any part of the pie, and if by any chance you get a little tiny sliver of it, you better be damn grateful, and there's nothing else, right? Like, you don't deserve anything else, and so, There's the part of me that's like, no, no, no, we deserve all of it. And there's the part of me that's like, okay, like, what does the future look like where more of us can move out of this high approach to life and more into something that's like nourishing and [00:05:00] sustaining and like a cycle where we're missing that a little bit in our world today.
Amalia:Okay, I know over the summer you published a piece about changing your name, and we talk about names a lot on the show. I love to explore the meaning of names, the history of names, and how it's so personal to us. And so can you tell us the story about changing your name?
Ruchika:Both parts of my name have caused a lot of shame in different ways.
So, growing up with a name like Ruchika in Singapore, so it's an Indian origin, Sanskrit origin name, essentially this word means interesting.
Amalia:Ooh, I like it.
Ruchika:So, you know, but then growing up in Bullies in school would have all sorts of funny things to say about it and mean things to say about it, where like, I literally grew up feeling very ashamed of my name, really. And then that carried very much into the workplace as well, because here I am, I moved to the UK, then I moved to the US, and it was [00:06:00] really clear to me that names like mine, Not only do they get mispronounced, but there's actually this awkwardness that comes. There's very, there's like no research to back this up, by the way.
It's just people who have names that are unusual or, you know, rare here in like the U. S., for example, in the Western world. People, even in the workplace, will like not want to say it. So like, you'll be in a meeting, And you kind of want to say something, and maybe it's like a situation where maybe there's a facilitator, maybe they're like calling on people, they don't want to say your name because it's too awkward, you know, they're going to mispronounce it or butcher it, or sometimes it'll be this pointing situation like you, you go. Or they'll be like, and then John and James and, you know, Jen, they, they all agree with me. And you're like, Oh, but what about me? And so, there's this thing that starts to happen where you're both hyper visible and invisible at the same time, which is true for a lot of women of color across [00:07:00] the board. So, it took me a long time. I mean, it took me decades to reclaim agency and connection over my own name, which tells this beautiful story of a heritage and all this meaning and so powerful, right. And then I changed my last name over the summer publicly, which was a very difficult decision. Basically, my last name is the one of my fathers. And through a lot of like betrayal and fraud, it became clear to me that even though outwardly I was building this work, you know, using my former last name, where people were like, Oh, are you this person?
Like I read this article you wrote for HBR, or I read your book and all of that. And I was building this, work that I was hoping would create a world that was much more equitable, much more fair, much more just, much more like, you know, being the type of person, being the type of good ancestor you want to see in the world and be in the world, while also carrying forward an unusual name that was [00:08:00] really not that. And so, I've been married for 13 years, and back then I was like, absolutely not, like, I am not changing my last name to match that of my husband, like, it's just not even going to happen, it's not even a question, and then kind of having to eat my words in public a little bit, and grapple with that, and then recognize that actually, While I try and build this new legacy under, you know, my new last name Malhotra, there's a real opportunity to hopefully build that legacy for first and foremost, my eight year old son who has that last name, but also say to myself, like, look, I'm reclaiming the agency that I've actually never felt over either of my names, my first and my last name.
Amalia:So when you were younger and you were married and you said, I'm not changing my name to his, was that a, a choice that you had because you felt it took some of your agency, you didn't want to adopt your husband's last name? Or was there other reasons for not wanting to do that at the time?
Ruchika:I think the number one thing is White Western [00:09:00] feminism tells you don't do that.
Amalia:I see.
Ruchika:You know?
Amalia:Yeah.
Ruchika:And I was like, okay, I'm not doing that. Like here's me. being a feminist. And I think as I grow older, my relationship to feminism, of course, has changed, right? There's some amazing books out there questioning this for feminism and others. And we're now at a place where we really recognize that the way that Western feminism has shown up in the world hasn't really moved the rights of women forward. Especially women of color, especially global women. And so there's also this sort of personal micro reckoning I had with my own name and, you know, first choosing not to change it and then saying, no, I do need to change it because like, who am I really? But then the larger sort of what's happening out in the world where, where we're also questioning, like a lot of what we were told about feminism would liberate us and like, let's all go out into the world and work. And when we earn our own [00:10:00] money, Like, you know, we'll be free, but actually none of us are liberated. I mean, the conversation I have with every single professional woman I know who has any caregiving responsibilities, kids, aging parents, family members, community, every conversation actually revolves around what you've said about this whole damn pie idea of, like, how do you find that balance? This is not a conversation I'm having with any male identifying person in my life.
Amalia:Well, I want to talk about your professional work because you are really impressive. You're a best-selling author. You wrote a book, Inclusion on Purpose, an intersectional approach to creating a culture of belonging at work. I mean, the timing couldn't be better for that work.
Ruchika:Thank you. That was two and a half years ago, and sadly, yeah, more relevant than I would like it to be. I always tell people, like, truly, I get asked, like, what would you do if you weren't doing this? And I was like, I really, like, my hope is to render myself [00:11:00] obsolete so I can retire. And I would not be talking about equity and justice because people would be, oh, that's so, like, obviously, like, of course, everyone deserves to be treated equally.
Amalia:So I'd love to know the story of how you got into the work that you do.
Ruchika:I started as a journalist, actually. I was covering some really interesting companies, leaders. The media industry is one that is overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly, especially male when it comes to decision makers, right? So you can imagine what happens when stories are being selected to be covered and even the way that they're covered. It comes from a very certain lens, and you cannot undo that. For example, I was a journalist in Atlanta. I'd be like, oh my gosh, like, here's these amazing entrepreneurs we should be covering. And it was a lot like our audience won't care, you know, that was in various different places I've worked in in different countries as well. And so that was sort of the beginning that there was like a little, this like nagging [00:12:00] feeling like, hey, this doesn't feel right. Like we're supposed to tell these stories doesn't feel like we're telling them the way like in the full sort of expansiveness of what we should be doing. It feels like we're not doing our jobs correctly. And at that time, like, there was just not the level of, which I'm glad, the level of accountability there is right now. So that was like sort of my early career experience. And then I moved to the Seattle area for my partner's job. And, I got into a tech job and it was really tough. The industry was, again, words that we now have to describe, whether it's like microaggressions, which by the way, I don't even use that term anymore because I'm like, I think we understand like what it means. But back in the day, like there was no language for me to like, talk about, like what it means to have your name mispronounced willfully or people to ignore you or not include you because they're like, she's weird or she's different. And it was a very tough, very sobering experience, right? Like it really [00:13:00] pushed forward this moment of reckoning where I was like, okay, so I was told, doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter that, you know, your gender, at least that was the narrative I played for myself. I certainly heard messages that, oh, girls don't, you know, Indian girls don't or whatever. So in my mind, I'm like, oh, I get all the degrees. I get all the experience. Everything will be great for me. Again, back to this idea of the damage that feminism did. And it was clear to me that that was not going to be the case. Not at this organization, not if I wanted any balance in my life. I didn't have even have a kid at that point, but it was clear like this was not the way that my life should be and this is not the way that I would be able to be fulfilled. So I kind of quit everything much to the chagrin of my immigrant family.
They were a bit like, uh, you mean you're going to leave stock options on the table? And I was like, I really like, this is not, I can't do this. Yeah. And I kind of leaped into the abyss. I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this, but what I can say for sure is the narrative of the lean in [00:14:00] movement of don't take yourself out of the running, like be more confident despite me feeling like I'm very confident. I certainly was even back then. So the last decade plus has really been about me pushing back against that narrative, looking into how bias and inequity plays into the system, and how so many systemic challenges have resulted in so many women, and especially women of color, that That's a community my work centers around. Also not a monolith made up of so many different communities and identities and immigration stories and, you know, all sorts of other things. But really like how it shows up in the world and how we can make a difference by creating more belonging and equity and inclusion when we center the experience of folks who have been most marginalized, right?
Like at the core of social justice work is that when you center the person most marginalized, everyone. Everyone benefits. Everyone.
Amalia:If you centered them, everyone, you're catching everyone in the [00:15:00] net.
Ruchika:That's right. Can I say one more thing, Amalia?
Amalia:Yes, please.
Ruchika:So I registered my business almost about a decade ago. When I started, what I really wanted to do is kind of like what you do.
Amalia:Really?
Ruchika:That was my dream. So my dream was to marry inclusion work. Like at that time, again, the words didn't really exist. Like people would say diversity, but like, It wasn't like the fully formed thing, but like what I wanted to do was use my journalism storytelling background to tell the stories of organizations trying to do this work right. And the funny thing is because It wasn't really the words inclusion and equity and diversity were both like, they were, I mean, equity wasn't even in the picture by then. It was really hard to communicate to folks what I wanted to do. And so a lot of my work that came around the consulting I do, I run a consulting company called Kenner. It really happened [00:16:00] very organically. Like, I want to help you tell the story. And they're like, we don't really think we have a story to tell. But instead, could you help us measure how we're doing on diversity or things like that?
Amalia:Help us even create the impact to tell the story.
Ruchika:That's right.
Amalia:Yeah. Isn't it amazing how quickly these terms have entered the sphere that give voice and language for something that we've as women of color have experienced forever. Without the language, I sometimes feel like I was the only one, or I couldn't quite define how it felt. And then there was a term that would pop up, or I, you know, I learned something. That's it. Like, that is what I'm talking about. And now it at least gives, not that it solves everything, but at least gives you a language to start a conversation.
Ruchika:It really does. And my big fear and sadness about these terms being attacked [00:17:00] so viciously, you know, throughout the last sort of presidential campaign. and certainly gearing up for the next few years, is these words are getting so deeply attacked, and I worry that there will be, somewhere out there, there are Ruchikas in the workplace and others like me, whom will start to wonder, like, is it just me? Because I was so lonely, and I really thought it was me. I really did. Like, I was like, if I raised my hand more, I should just, and like, that pushback at every level.
Amalia:Yeah, I mean, it is that individual blame versus systematic recognition of an issue. I'm with you. I keep saying to people, we just need to reclaim this word woke. Because for some reason, the people who are using it have no idea. Cursing. Fucking idea what it means, right? Like, they have no idea, and now it's just this all-encompassing term to mean [00:18:00] something that they don't agree with, and it's like the dumbing down of all this hard work of so many people, including, like, you and your peers and me and my peers, and I'm reclaiming it.
So your new book is done and it's set to publish in the fall, right?
Ruchika:Fall 2025, yes.
Amalia:Fall 2025. And the book is titled Uncompete, and I want to read something that you wrote about this topic. You say, quote, “systems of oppression want to foster competition, stir up jealousy, and discourage collaboration with others. We are conditioned by capitalism, racism, and the patriarchy, and the systems of oppression that want us to fail. To believe there's only room for one person or a small handful to succeed. And the further you are from the center of power and privilege, the sharper those elbows should be. This can be particularly true in marginalized communities.”
I resonated [00:19:00] so much with this. I mean, I think we can all give examples of where this shows up. Do you have specifics in your work with people where this is showing up?
Ruchika:Yeah, actually there are two. So one is personal and one is professional. So let's do personal first. I was listening to your episode with Colleen Echohawk, who I have like the best fangirl crush.
Amalia:Same.
Ruchika:She's brilliant. I mean, just incredible. The two of you in conversation, I was like, whoa, powerhouses galore. And then, you know, she talked about like how there was just so much abundance in her, like she was modeled abundance by her parents and like she shared these awesome stories of that. And I actually saw two diametrically opposed ideas or like approaches on how to work with Be in the world from my parents, you know, so in some ways Uncompete is a love letter to my mother, who it really encompasses like what it's like to live with abundance, like, you know, everyone deserves to eat. Everyone [00:20:00] deserves happiness. Everyone deserves joy. Everyone deserves community. And then the opposite, who was my father when I was growing up, I really saw the Capitalism, like that late stage greedy scarcity, winner takes all, zero sum thinking, like, if I'm running a business, if I get 100, even though you deserve 50, let me figure out a way to undercut you so you get 0. If I have to, I'll give you 1, you know, and I'll keep 99. So seeing those two opposite worlds, and in some ways, you know, like so much of Western elite education reinforces that idea, like, you know, to be successful, you need to do blah, blah, blah, like, you know, the means justify the ends and whatnot. And really feeling failed by that, like recognizing how lonely, how difficult it was, especially when I, when I was thinking about wanting to build a community for both me as like a caregiver and my son [00:21:00] as a child, like it was very difficult. If you approach the world with that mindset, you will never be able to create the community that nourishes and sustains you. Right? Like it'll always be about competition. The professional example was in so much of the DEI consulting I was doing, the constant pushback I would get from quote unquote “woke leaders”. You know, again, more of these really well-meaning leaders, almost entirely white, almost entirely male, saying like, I really believe in inclusion in theory, in practice, but what about the men? But what about the white people? But what about people like me, you know? And does that mean now, like, no one can get a job at this company unless you're a woman, like I would hear that sort of pushback, and it really felt like cognitive dissonance.
And that's when I started realizing, like, it doesn't matter if you believe in equity and [00:22:00] inclusion as an idea. Unless you don't see yourself as like interdependent and part of a larger community, as long as you harbor scarcity thinking and competitive thinking and competition at all costs thinking. You will never be able to do this work. And that included me.
Amalia:Yeah.
Ruchika:That included me in the work I was doing. That included me saying, as a business owner, you know this as a business owner, sometimes a contract, no matter how lucrative, it's not right for me.
Amalia:Right.
Ruchika:Like, I'm not the right person to do this.
Amalia:Mm-hmm .
Ruchika:You know, or if I am, who else can I bring in?
Amalia:Right.
Ruchika:Right. It's not about me working 80 hours a week to deliver.
Amalia:Yeah.
Ruchika:It's me figuring out who else can I share this pie with to bring the whole damn pie metaphor forward. Who can I share this pie with so that we can really do great work and live great lives as well?
Amalia:Yeah. Isn't it interesting to leaders like you and I, that it [00:23:00] seems. Like second nature, right? Like this opportunity isn't right for me. It's going to be right for someone else. I want to share it with someone in my circle so they can have the opportunity to, or let's bring someone in and we can like spread the wealth and we can help someone else's business grow too. And to me, that just seems like the way we should do business. But I've learned in a lot of my entrepreneurial groups, you know, that I am usually the only or very few at the table that look like me, that is radical. Absolute radical thinking.
Ruchika:Radical. I, I mean, there were moments when I was writing this book where it's like, isn't this intuitive? Isn't this the way it is? And it's not. And I think that's because even among people who want to make the world a better place, we’re still so deeply conditioned with the idea, for example, of scarcity thinking as the survival of the fittest.
Amalia:Well, I think leaning into this [00:24:00] moment and this next moment of helping develop leaders, if we ourselves, you and I say we're leaders in this space of just in community and in business and this is a space that we choose to operate in. We have some leaders coming up behind us, and I think they have been handed a language that we didn't have, but they're going to also really butt up against some pretty major challenges. And I think there's also leaders out there that wouldn't identify themselves as leaders, but they are. So what advice would you give someone to become an inclusive leader?
Ruchika:I want to say like, even leadership is a term that really, or at least the idea of it has to be redefined. And I remember when I started, you know, just looking for images for my talks, like when I started out in the work that I do around, especially gender diversity, I'd look up the term leader and Google like the first, a hundred pages of searches would show me like [00:25:00] a, you know, pale male and stale dude and in a suit. That was leader, right? And then sometimes for diversity, they'd have a table of women looking at him while he holds court. Like that was truly, I mean, this is, I mean, no joke. And I think they've, I think, I'm pretty sure Google's changed kind of the algorithms after feedback, but this is 10 years ago when I was starting to give talks on this topic. And so I can understand why so many of us don't internalize that term, right? Like even now, if you show school children, you know, if you ask them to like imagine a doctor, they will draw largely a male doctor looking person
Amalia:Right.
Ruchika:You know, or like an executive male looking person. So we have a lot of work to be done because it's so deeply conditioned in us. Like what does a leader look like and what doesn't, right? For many of us in terms of being an inclusive leader, we really have to change our approach from like, we're the What do I get to eat and what do I get to keep to like, who [00:26:00] else can I bring along with me in this journey? Right? And how do I do that in a way that celebrates them, that recognizes them, that affirms them. I mean, all the greatest leaders. I have ever worked for, worked with, aspire to, have really brought along other people's stories and journeys and identities and really created a level of safety for them to belong. I think of like being a 10-year-old girl in Singapore where I was a racial minority, where I was tall and big and brown and not seeing people like me at all as leaders and turning on the TV and watching Oprah Winfrey on TV every afternoon with my mom. And how she, from thousands of miles away, right, like a whole different universe away, could lead by creating a world that showed me that, hey, I could do that too, maybe, or something like [00:27:00] it. That's leadership to me.
Amalia:Oh, I mean, Oprah is the boss, right? I mean, she's inspired me so many times.
Ruchika:Yeah.
Amalia:My next question is about people of color, specifically women of color who are in leadership positions or CEO positions, you want to say a feeling. Well, I'll say my own feeling because maybe others don't share this with me, but I sometimes feel like there is a different expectation for me to be a certain kind of leader. Like during, as an example, during the summer of 2020 with the racial reckoning and all the things, I had so many people who would apply to say, I just want to work for a woman of color because I know this will be so different. And I think that. You know, as you're building a company, [00:28:00] I felt like the need to respond to whatever this thing was that people thought that I was supposed to be, which I think in my own leadership journey, I've kind of surpassed this a little bit, but I still, you know, we'll walk into a room and, and sometimes I feel like I'm supposed to be some kind of unicorn, right? But I'm, I'm also just supposed to be operating a profitable business. It creates a margin, right? And a healthy, you know, like I'm, you're supposed to do the both and.
Ruchika:The both and.
Amalia:And I don't. I don't know if that's, I can't imagine that's just me experiencing that, but I wonder what you hear from other women leaders about how they feel about it.
Ruchika:I mean, there's a saying that is, applicable across the board. You have to sometimes be not just twice as good, like you have to be 10 times as good to be considered half as good. You know, and what you're fighting up against, what you're battling is really real. Like those biases, those microaggressions, which again, I call them exclusionary behaviors, but [00:29:00] really this idea, can you really lead, right? So you're up against that. Having known your work and following the Vida Agency, creating something that is impactful and legacy lasting and like, not just, I'm going to take like the biggest contracts I can get, but really like, how can I create value and create something that is meaningful and lasting for generations to come? That really requires so much out of us. And a lot of leaders and a lot of CEOs who don't look like that, who don't look like us, they don't think like that.
Amalia:Yeah.
Ruchika:It's not the same thing. And even if they had one of the two, right? Like, even if they're like, no, I want to do impactful legacy, like change making work. They're not up against those barriers of then dealing with people questioning us or struggling with our authority. Like, I'm thinking of some of the people who came to apply to your company because they wanted to work for a woman of color. Had they [00:30:00] done like the internal work of what it means to take I don't want to say orders, but like to even see a woman of color in leadership positions, right? Like when we, I don't want to talk about the elections and like, you know, take us all sideways. But I think one of the questions, even if you had challenges with the Democratic candidate, even if you had challenges with Kamala Harris, how many people just really struggled with the fact that like, could a woman of color do this job?
Amalia:Yes. Right.
Ruchika: Like forget everything else. Right? It was rather, we would rather go for the candidate who we know has created so much of challenge. But at the end of the day, like that, and that's really me putting it super mildly like super, yeah, let's just try it. You know, like I'm really trying to keep it all above board, but you know, you recognize, like you recognize this, you, you start to see like people really struggle no matter what [00:31:00] level. I mean, I used to teach college classes and every quarter without fail, there would be a couple of evaluations that would say, I don't know that she's qualified to teach this course. And I was like, I am the only professor in this department who has a master's degree from an Ivy league university in journalism. So yes, I am more than qualified to teach.
Amalia:Isn't it interesting that it's couched in that question? I mean, I heard that so much during the election of like, or even talking to people who are. would say that they are progressive or would say that they believe in, in these values around equity. They would say, I just don't know if she's qualified. And from their words to my ears was a complete different translation. That's not what I heard, right? By the time it got through my brain, I'm like, Oh, fuck, here we go. Here we go again. Let's do it. Let's, let's go through the list. My go to would be, I would say, what were the qualifications of the last three vice presidents?
Ruchika: Yeah. Give it to me. [00:32:00] I mean, you didn't even think to ask, you know, and that is, that's the truth for you, whoever's asking me the questions, you didn't think to ask, and that's the problem. So back to your question, like, I think the struggle you feel is real. What you're going to face is going to be really challenging. I remember talking to a public company CEO who was a black woman who is now retired, who talked about the time, like, she took the company private jet. She was in her business suit. She was getting off at her destination and people thought she was the airline stewardess. That's what we're up against, right?
Amalia:Yeah.
Ruchika: It's our own estimations. Like we may have done all the work to get us to where we need to go in terms of seeing ourselves for who we are. But when you're constantly battling the underestimations of others, like that does take a toll on you.
Amalia:Yeah. It does. I think it fired me up, right? Like, as a young person, you're like, [00:33:00] I'm here.
Ruchika: Yeah. Yeah.
Amalia: Doubt me. Watch me. Show me up. But as I get older, I'm like, this is tiring. I'm exhausted.
Ruchika: I'm tired. I'm exhausted. I mean, I take so much comfort from the work of, you know, Tricia Hersey and, you know, rest is resistance. Like, I really think Some part of our leadership, like, yes, we're leaders because we are, we're, we're going to be different leaders, right? We're not thinking about like adding more seats to the table. We're thinking about creating a bigger table.
Amalia: Yeah.
Ruchika: And I think there's a lot of like fire and firing, you have to do for that. And I think there is also a space for leaders like us to model what it means to rest and to say, I think that's part of like what I'm trying to do with Uncompete. I'm also trying to say like, it is more than okay to opt out of like you feeling like you need to Be the example for everything, for every single situation. You need to be the sort of face of everything. Like it is okay to opt out because you're tired. It's more than okay. Like that is leadership [00:34:00] too.
Amalia: Yes. And creating those opportunities, visibility for others.
Ruchika: Totally.
Amalia: On your team or in your circle. Yeah. So I like what you said about rest is resistance. And I've heard that you've just completed a yoga teacher training. Is that your way to rest?
Ruchika: Yes, Absolutely. You know, and even though here in the West, it's all about like the physical asana practice, when you go into like deep yogic philosophy, it really is about It really is about like becoming aware of yourself off, uh, you know, ceasing the cessation off the fluctuations of your mind, right, is really a big core central philosophy of yoga that nobody ever talks about. And I think that for me. Especially going in with the intention not to teach and leaving with the intention also not to teach at this point at the end of the 200 hour training [00:35:00] was me saying like how damn radical for me to carve out 200 hours just for myself where I'm not a mother, I'm not a wife, I'm not a friend, I'm not a daughter, I'm not a sister, I'm not a business owner, I'm not someone's boss, like I am just me and My God, it felt good.
It was hard as hell because of all the conditioning we received. That is the rest. That is the resistance that I really, I wish for more of us to receive.
Amalia: Ruchika, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. I am so inspired by your thoughtfulness and how you explain the work you do. And I feel like I got a mini coaching session.
Ruchika: Amalia, this was such a pleasure. And let me just tell you. I [00:36:00] am sad we didn't meet in person earlier. I've been a fan of your work for a long time. But now, I think it's the yoga, I think it's the work I've done, I think it's growing older, that's taught me, like, this was the moment we were meant to meet. Like, we were meant to meet right now. And be friends. And practice yoga together.
Amalia: I believe it!
Ruchika: And eat cheese together.
Amalia: You can find Ruchika's work at ruchika.co and we'll put links to her work and her book in our show notes.