“When you’re a woman of color in leadership, why wouldn't you have an identity crisis when the standard for you, even in the position of power that you are in, is different from your white co-workers and colleagues. You have to spend time and emotional labor to advocate to people why you are even here in the first place.”
Qurat Ul Ain is an immigrant, an asylum seeker, and a leader in the legal fight for women's rights across the country.
Amalia and Qurat Ul Ain speak about feeling like you need to whitewash yourself, the many challenges and sacrifices you face as a refugee in the US, and having to hide parts of your personality or your beliefs and opinions to fit in or earn your visa. They also connect over Qurat Ul Ain’s work at Legal Voice, including operating on a shared leadership model and the shocking fact that crisis pregnancy centers aren’t protected by HIPAA.
Key Takeaways:
Learn more about Legal Voice here: https://legalvoice.org/
Qurat:[00:00:00] My partner, they are Caucasian. So even around their family and their friends, I feel like I've whitewashed myself so much because I don't want other people to feel uncomfortable when I'm internally just like dying. I'm just like this is so uncomfortable for me. Even at work, I find myself having this inner battle all the time.
Amalia:Welcome to The Whole Damn Pie. I'm Amalia Martino. My guest today is Qurat. Her last name has a lot to do with this conversation, so I'm not going to give it away just yet. Qurat came to us via Legal Voice. Legal Voice fights for gender liberation across the Pacific Northwest. Full disclosure, my company, The Vida Agency does work with Legal Voice, and I wanted to share what they do and how it fits into this idea of The Whole Damn Pie because [00:01:00] It is crucial to be able to be a whole person and have autonomy over your whole self. And they do a lot of work for women's rights and reproductive rights. And right now that's a really important conversation to have.
Okay! Qurat. Can you say your whole name for me because I want to make sure I'm getting it right.
Qurat:Do you want the real version or the whitewash version that I use?
Amalia:The version you want. Oh my god, this might be a fun exercise, actually. Do both.
Qurat:So my actual name is Qurat Ul Ain.
Amalia:Qurat Ul Ain.
Qurat:Yes, there you go. But a lot of people just know me by Qurat. 15 years ago, a white lady called me Qurat, and I was too afraid to correct her, and here we are.
Amalia:Now you've just went ahead and put that on. Qurat Ul Ain. Qurat is not a name.
Qurat:It's one third of my name.
Amalia:One third of your name.
Qurat:Yeah, if I do the complete, like, translation, it just means coolness. [00:02:00] I know, it's like a very rad name.
Amalia:That is a rad name. Yeah. So what is your last name?
Qurat:Oh my goodness, how much time do you have? Um, so when I first moved to the United States, they did not understand the fact that a name could be this long. So they took off my dad's last name, put FNU as my first name for about five years, and Qurat Ul Ain as my last name. So for the first six years of my life, I was FNU, like first name unidentified. Legally, on my social security, and then last name caught at the line and then when I got my permanent residency, I was like, can I take FNU off? And they were like, yes, you can, but you can split your last name into two, as opposed to adding another name, like your family name or your last, like, father's name. And I was like, okay, yeah, let's do that.
Amalia:Wow.
Qurat:Yeah, so legally, my last name is Ain, which would be eyes. [00:03:00] Again, super random.
Amalia:Okay, hold on. So you're, I mean, this is just wild for anybody who hasn't gone through this. This is just your name, which all of us have a name and it's very personal to us, right? So, but yours has changed many times because of where you are in the world and what the system assigns to you to make it easier for the system.
Qurat:Yeah, so John Oliver did a whole episode about folks who are coming to the United States, particularly from Afghanistan or Iran or Pakistan. You know, this is very common, and he did a whole episode, and I felt so seen, I was like, somebody out there knows what it means, because when I would get jobs, automatically they would just make an email address with my first name, and it would be like FNU's at, da, da, da, da, whatever.
Amalia:And [00:04:00] FNU means nothing?
Qurat:It means nothing. It means first name unidentified.
Amalia:I'm so sorry that happened to you. That's wild! Yeah, well, we're here today to talk about the Whole Damn Pie so I started this podcast. As a COVID project, because I was tired of being in my house, only talking the same like three people, right. And I just wanted to connect with people. And at the time I was like, if I could envision what I want my life to look like and what I want my pie to look like, you know, it meant one thing then it means something else today. But to me, it really means having control over my life and the choices and being able to design a life in the way that I want to, which is also a privilege. So I would love to know what the whole damn pie means to you.
Qurat:For me, you know, health, promotion, jobs, they keep changing and my goal post keeps shifting. But one constant that has always been, uh, [00:05:00] hopes and dreams, if you will, would be the whole damn self be accepted and belonging somewhere, right? And that would be my whole pie, because even when, you know, moving in the United States, like, the first thing I do is like when people ask me, so where are you really from? That's how most of my conversations really start. So just I shut half of myself out of those conversations. And just to put people at ease, I'm like, oh yeah, if it comes to religion, it's like, I was raised as a Muslim, but I'm not practicing. I'm very pagan, very queer so like, just to put people's mind at ease. But internally, what it does is that I'm kind of erasing my history. And my identity piece by piece. And I think it's more of like an internal work that I still need to do. But that would be my whole damn pie. Like just the whole me, my whole self, my culture, my name, my history, where I come from and what I represent and what I used to represent and where I am now. That would be my whole pie.
Amalia:Wow. [00:06:00] Yeah. I love that. I really, really, really love that because I think a lot of people don't even have to do that mental gymnastics. And that emotional gymnastics on a day-to-day basis, and for a lot of people it is the reality, right? I mean, I, I do this a little bit, probably not to the extent that you do, but you know, I'll walk into a make sure I'm showing up in a way that makes others comfortable for something that I have no control of just because of how I appear when I walk in the door.
Qurat:It was interesting cause my sister, she lives here close to where I live, but there was like a cultural event that she invited me to and normally I'm not very social and she was dressed up in our cultural attire and she requested that I do too and I didn't have any, so I didn't. And just like grabbed bits and pieces from her closet. And we had to stop at the store on my way back to pick up some dog food. [00:07:00] And I was mortified. I was like, I do not want to step out of the car because I am so uncomfortable people will see me in a way that it's makes me uncomfortable, but it's all me. And so yeah, a whole damn pot would be for me stepping out confidently and not being put in a box.
Amalia:I like it. I'm really excited to talk to you because my agency, the Vida Agency, has worked with Legal Voice over the last, I know, a year and a half or something probably, and mostly in the media push of helping push out the work. You're due to mainstream media across the country, especially when it comes to the work in Idaho and the lawsuits against the state of Idaho for their abortion ban and travel bans. And it was really surprising to me because we do a lot of work with a lot of different clients, but when I shared this project, I think on my own social media, I got so many responses from just women in my life from, you [00:08:00] know, people I go to yoga with or people that I knew in high school or you know, just random people.I love Legal Voice. I volunteered with them. I do this. Oh, I, oh my gosh, what are you doing? You know, and I've never experienced that before for like one of the projects. Usually, you know, I get like a couple like thumbs up, but nobody really wants to engage and learn more. So I was really surprised, but really delighted. So tell me about Legal Voice. What is the core to the work that Legal Voice does?
Qurat:The work we do is not for like adulation, but it's really to make sure that we are talking about the laws and how it's impacting the people that we are working with and working for. So public education part is a big deal for us. We do like know your rights events across the region for folks to know that, hey, if so and so bill is passed, this is how it impacts your loved ones and yourself. And a lot of our litigation, we are hoping that results in changing of some of those draconian [00:09:00] laws, including the abortion travel ban. Those are the three main components that the way we operate. And it is exciting. It is challenging. It's also very heartbreaking to see how far the pendulum has swung back, but that, that only makes us want to work even harder.
Amalia:Yeah. Well, I imagine those new year rights events are important because not only is the pendulum swinging, but the goalpost is moving and the rights are changing from election to election or whatever it is, it gets really scary. Do you do those in Washington state, the Know Your Rights events?
Qurat:We do. We do.This past year, a lot of our focus has been in Idaho because that has been a hotbed for reproductive justice for a while. But yes, we do have some events that we have been doing in Washington. Collaboration is a huge part of the work that we do. And that is how we learn from our [00:10:00] clients, our potential plaintiffs, our community. So yeah, it's, it's a huge part of the work that we do.
Amalia:I'm wondering from the Know Your Rights events, especially in Idaho, what are some of the misconceptions that people have or what are the things that they're learning?
Qurat:A lot of the questions that people are typically surprised by is that they do have rights and they do have options, especially with the immigrant community and people who speak English as a second language. It has been. Very fascinating to have those conversations when a lot of people have this understanding that they can't access reproductive health care or any health care outside of Idaho. And if they do, how they're going to be like civil and criminally prosecuted, especially if you are undocumented or if you are on a a refugee status or an asylee status like that. Those things add another layer of fear. And it's, [00:11:00] it's been fascinating to teach people or like just to explain that, you know, you do have rights even though you feel like you don't. And access to healthcare outside of the areas and facilities that they're aware of. That has been the most, I would say, helpful for the community.
Amalia:Yeah, that's great.
Qurat:Oftentimes, I would say in Washington, healthcare privacy data is something that, you know, people haven't been talking about it a whole lot for.So some of the work that we've been doing is for crisis pregnancy centers. And a lot of people who were reaching out to CPCs for healthcare, they didn't realize that they're not controlled by HIPAA. And so their healthcare data and their privacy data was. It's easy for folks.
Amalia:Not protected?
Qurat:Not protected.
Amalia:Wait a second. I gotta go back. A CPC is what?
Qurat:A Crisis Pregnancy Center.
Amalia:So if somebody visits a Crisis Pregnancy Center, their medical data is not protected by [00:12:00] HIPAA?
Qurat:It is not protected by HIPAA. And I wouldn't say some of them have some regulations for, but for the most part.
Amalia:I'm sorry. How is this possible? Like, I mean, I know how it's possible, but I didn't know that.
Qurat:Yeah.
Amalia:That's outrageous.
Qurat:Some of the centers, they don't have checks and balances the way they should. So we have partnered with some of the organizations nationwide to kind of like push this out and like, you know, reached out to like the AGs of several states that, hey, will you please look into this? Washington is very fortunate that, you know, there has been a lot of work that has been done for this and people are working towards like, you know, making sure that it is more controlled. But not in all of states. Once when our partners were doing some research, it was very easy for them to access information of patients so much so that even we could actually see it.
Qurat:And you should not be able to see that. We should not be [00:13:00] cause think about it. In states like Texas, if that data is leaked, you can be criminally charged. You can be criminally prosecuted for accessing health care. That is your right, your basic human right.
Amalia:Yeah.
Qurat:And people who do reach out to CPCs. A lot of them have limitations to what they can afford and they think that this might be a safe option.And a lot of people who do access CPCs, they probably may have some privacy and safety concerns at home as well.
Amalia:Right.
Qurat:And they go there with an understanding that they will, their information will be protected and trusted and they will be safe, but that is not the case. And so just telling people and teaching them about their rights and how to like, make sure that they are seeing the whole picture has been a very rewarding experience. I did not know anything about it until I started working a Legal Voice and until I started, You know, learning more and studying [00:14:00] more about it.
Amalia:I want to talk to how you got involved with Legal Voice, but I need to ask this because this is my own maybe misinformation. I don't know. So early on, you know, after, uh, the overturning of Roe versus Wade, I heard a lot of things that I should or shouldn't be doing as a woman when it comes to like tracking my menstrual cycle in apps. Like, oh, you shouldn't be doing that because they're going to be taking the data to be able to monitor women's ovulation and pregnancy cycle. And at first I was like, is that true? But then. I just stopped. I mean, because when I see things like the 23andMe data that's being used now that they've declared bankruptcy, it's, it gets really scary. And I'm wondering if, am I, am I fake newsing it? Or is that, is that an act, is this an appropriate behavior on my end to just stop logging it digitally.
Qurat:Unfortunately, this has been an issue and this has come up even in our conversations with [00:15:00] our attorneys at Legal Voice as well. We are fortunate to be living in Washington state. This year legislative session, My Health, My Data was big for us to kind of like talk about and to make sure that our health data is private. Through apps, medical records, all of it. So I would say in Washington, there are checks and balances to make sure that we do have some privacy, but I can't speak to say that for all the other states as well. But yeah, it is accurate that your data through those peer tracking apps can be used against you.
Amalia:I mean, just the fact that women across America don't have the same protections and that, depending on where you live, your experience and your liberty is so different. It's Yeah. infuriating. So can you talk to me a little bit about your role at Legal Voice?
Qurat:Yes. So at Legal Voice, we don't [00:16:00] have standard executive director model. We have shared leadership. So I am one of the two individuals who kind of like co direct Legal Voice where we collectively make decisions and we collectively make sure that we are living up to our values and dividing up the work because it's really not the most efficient way to have one executive director and make them in charge of pretty much taking care of everything. It's just a lot to tackle. And our SLT model, our shared leadership model, came out from our risk equity conversations, just to kind of like dismantle that status quo that is often associated with nonprofits and philanthropy. And especially for like. nonprofit law firms, you know historically it hasn't been a diverse, for lack of better terms, leadership model. And, uh, we oversee all five states. So it's [00:17:00] kind of cool.
Amalia:I didn't know that you had that shared leadership model. That's really interesting and innovative and equitable in itself. I mean, know that the law, I think as an industry, kind of similar to consulting, like what we do at our agency can feel a little like inhumane at times, especially when you're, you know, banking for billable hours. And we do a lot of government contracting. And I feel like if we didn't have those regulations, I would have set it up a little bit differently, but because I have to meet those regulations, talking about billable hours gets a little bit robotic, less human, more robotic.
Qurat:And really, it's exciting to see that the landscape of nonprofit sector as a whole is changing, and a lot of organizations are adopting the shared leadership model. One of our wonderful partners, they have adopted a shared leadership model. Not many people are doing it, but as we are thinking about [00:18:00] community front and center and thinking about philanthropy from a different lens, it is very exciting. It's not easy, and sometimes it can be confusing for boards and maybe potentially staff members too that they're not used to it, but it is, I think it's the right way to go.
Amalia:So how did you get involved with Legal Voice to begin with?
Qurat:I was working in another organization. At that time, I was not looking to move, but I knew I was not happy. And I met the recruiter at an event, and I had worked with her previously. And she was like, Hey, there's this nonprofit law firm, and they're looking for someone. And I think your experience would be such a good fit. Based on being in philanthropy for as long as I have, and then also having the, um, legal understanding. So, I applied and I was like, I'll see where this goes. [00:19:00] And, you know, not to sound very cheesy and corny, but the job description was exactly, if I had to create like a dream job description for myself. That was it. And I was like, oh, this is just like a perfect mix of my hopes and dreams and my goals. And a lot of the work that Legal Voice does, unfortunately, is my lived experience. So it was very personal to me. And I think the best way for me to channel my anger over my lived experience is to it was a great movement and I am, by design, a very radical person. So that's how it started. And I've been at Legal Voice a little over a year now.
Amalia:Okay.
Qurat:So I'm still relatively new to the team and it's been fantastic. A lot of transition, but that's how we grow, right?
Amalia:Yeah, totally. I mean, I want to get into a little bit of your lived experience because I, I understand that you first started working in law in the U. S. [00:20:00] You worked on your own immigration case.
Qurat:I did.
Amalia:Can you tell me more about that experience?
Qurat:Yeah, when I talk about my lived experience, people think it's a very terrifying story, but it is a story that is embedded in privilege. I think my story is not a representation of the most immigrant refugee and asylee experience in particular. I moved to United States in very unfortunate circumstances, actually. I didn't even know that this was actually going to work out. I am a religious and a political asylee here. And when I first moved to United States, I landed in Virginia and I couldn't afford an attorney, but I have the understanding I am. I did, I did go to law school, so I was like, okay, you know what, I'm just gonna print out this USCSI form and just like, take it from there. And it was very complex and it was very challenging, but [00:21:00] I filed my own case, fought my own case, took a lot of years, took myself to those hearings, represented myself in front of Department of Homeland Security, and it was a very terrifying experience being alone and knowing that if this goes south you really don't have a home because you practically have been kicked out of the place that you used to live at. But it humbles you because I was able to do that. I did not have a language barrier. I didn't need a translator to help me understand what the law was and what paperwork I'm signing or how to navigate my rights. As an immigrant and filing for work permits and refiling for work permits and finding a job and making sure that your name is corrected on social security and take that FNU off. It's very complex. It's very expensive. It is very, very expensive to do that.
Amalia:I can only imagine.
Qurat:It only took 10 years.
Amalia:[00:22:00] It took 10 years?
Qurat:Yes, it did. It did. With change in administrations, um, laws change and then your paperwork, depending on what country you're from, has a different timeline and it gets punted back and forth between offices. And that's what it was for me in between that process for 10 years, I had to apply for a driver's license every year. I had to apply for a work permit every year, and if my work permit would expire, and I wouldn't have the next one lined up, I had to quit my job.
Amalia:Wow.
Qurat:So it was like, the system could not be more slow, and it teaches you resilience, and it teaches you patience, and I still think I am one of the lucky ones, and I still see a lot of privilege in my experience because I've heard stories that are [00:23:00] much more complex.
Amalia:Yeah. What is there to know about being a refugee that people from the U. S. may not know?
Qurat: We pay taxes, but we never get the reward for it because technically we are not citizens at the time. We're not permanent residents at the time. Refugees are not dependent on government assistance as much as people think that they are. A lot of them have experiences, education. So there are like a lot of like immaculate misconceptions that I had to like explain and tell people. Like people would talk to me and they would look at me they're like, oh well you don't really look like you or you don't sound like where you're from.
Amalia:So where did you immigrate from?
Qurat: I am a mix of Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern.
Amalia:Okay.
Qurat: And we do have refugees and asylees [00:24:00] are hardworking people. They don't want to be here because they think that America is the place to be. It is the only way to stay alive and to feel safe and keep your families and your loved ones safe and alive. And there's so much sacrifice that people make. When I first moved here, I could not go back to see my family. My parents passed while I was here. I wasn't allowed to go back to even attend their funeral. So there's a lot that people give up to live the American dream. And for most of us the American dream is not even what a lot of people might perceive as that, you know, Oh, big house, nice car, but it's really to just be able to survive and live and belong and yeah, of course, have a job and a car, of course. But I would say for me personally, that is not front and center for me. [00:25:00] just some dignity and some respect. And surprisingly, it's become exceedingly hard to leave that.
Amalia:Yeah, I bet. I mean, yeah, we're in this climate of the antithesis of what we say we are as a nation. So, for my own education, I'd love to know. So if you're an asylum seeker in the U. S. and like you said, you had to go through the process and you took yourself through the process, which is amazing for 10 years. So you had studied law prior to coming to the U. S.
Qurat: Yes.
Amalia:Okay. And you use that education to help take yourself through this process, which I imagine was a pretty lonely endeavor and scary.
Qurat: It was very lonely. It was very lonely. And because my case was in between the administration change of 2016. I was almost right there with all my paperwork done, all my ducks in a [00:26:00] row. Come 2016, a lot of things changed. And then right after that COVID hit. So they closed all USCSI offices. So it took a lot longer than it should have.
Amalia:You also mentioned it's really expensive. You don't have to tell me how much you paid, but like on average, how much is it for someone to actually successfully be granted asylum?
Qurat: So, you have to pay for your work permit every year, but the first one you get for free. After that, you have to pay close to 300, 350 for the filing of your EAD. On top of that, another 100 for your biometrics.
Amalia:Oh wait, so they're taking your biometrics as part of your work permit?
Qurat: Yes.
Amalia:What does that mean?
Qurat: You know, your fingerprints, take a new picture, and uh, I think they might have made some changes because of COVID, but when, when I first started, I had to go in person to one of those DHS offices.[00:27:00] Um, so that is a yearly expense.
Amalia:Okay.
Qurat: And then when you file for residency, that is close to $2,000. So for one person, it's fine, but if you have children and you have a partner and that is like $10,000 that you're looking at just to file for residency if you're like a family of four.
Amalia:Not to mention legal fees if you have to hire a lawyer to help you through the things and okay.
Qurat: Yeah.
Amalia:Wow.
Qurat: There are some services, and I used to volunteer in Alexandria, Virginia, at an organization that does help in helping you fill out the USCSI forms, but you have to be very lucky to get a spot there. And if English is not your first language, it's imperative. You can't, you can't do a lot of the work without an attorney.
Amalia:Right. Yeah, and you talked about being an asylum seeker means you can't go back to where you're from. So if this system doesn't approve [00:28:00] you becoming a citizen of the United States, what are options for people? What happens?
Qurat: So for me, if say, my case would have been denied and I would have a chance to appeal.
Amalia:Okay. Right.
Qurat: So I would appeal with a judge and that would give me some time to go through the process. If my judge says, you know what, you do not have a credible cause to be afraid from where you're from. We think that you are not a model citizen, um, to, uh, be in the United States. So you go back. Had it been for me I would have risked my life brcause my home country's constitution actually declares people of my faith as infidels. And what that means is that if someone of my faith is killed, murdered, the person committing the crime [00:29:00] is exonerated.
Amalia:Oh, wow. There's no repercussions.
Qurat: There is no repercussions. And now, at the time, now I'm like very pagan. I think, so even if as a pagan, if I go back, that's even worse actually.
Amalia:Really? Yeah. Okay
Qurat: You know, we are not allowed to call our places of worship as places of worship. So there's a lot. I wouldn't be able to like have a government job. And if people find out that I belong to that sect, um, with the current political climate back home, as a single woman or female identifying, I would definitely, probably wouldn't last like a year if that, if that and a lot of people have similar situations and similar circumstances. We leave and we flee our homelands and we come here and we have to prove to be a credible citizen or a model citizen for the [00:30:00] United States.
Amalia:There's no room for error. Like, what is the criteria for being a model citizen? Because I'm not sure I'd qualify.
Qurat: Say I get a speeding ticket. Okay. Um, It varies state by state, but in Virginia I get a speeding ticket. That is not me being a model citizen, because I was still in the process of getting my residency. I had to report that ticket to Department of Homeland Security, upload a file, copy up the ticket, and be like, this is what I did. I made a mistake. So anything more than that, anything more than a misdemeanor would automatically qualify for me never getting a residency. So if I say, have a Misdemeanor felony.
Amalia:Automatically you're out. Automatically I'm out. But if speeding ticket…
Qurat: I still need to report it. You need to report it. And if I don't report it within 10 days, that would be a problem. Because every year they review the entire file. I see. Like, how, what have you been up to this entire year?[00:31:00]
Amalia:I've heard about other friends who are maybe not asylum seekers, but are not citizens or here on other immigration status, being very concerned about what they post online and social media. Is that a real concern for immigrants? It's a very real concern.
Qurat: I'll tell you this very recent story. I had not left the United States for 12 years. And finally I was like, you know what? I need to travel. And I was traveling overseas and I came back and I would always get randomly selected. I still get randomly selected all the time, even for a domestic flight. So I come here and I'm going through customs and they pull me aside and they're like, well, we need your laptop, we need your cell phones, all your electronics and I had to unlock my electronics, my work laptop and hand it over to them. They took my passport [00:32:00] and they made me sit in a room.
Amalia:And this is not by choice.
Qurat: This is not by choice. You don't have a choice in this situation. I did not have a choice. And I was like, can I tell my sister who's out there like waiting for me, can I tell her that it's going to be a while? No, you can't have any communication with anyone. And they put you in a room. And they don't say anything. They just like.. they have this one person just constantly looking at you.
Amalia:But not communicating with you.
Qurat: Not communicating. It's, it's, it's terrifying. It almost feels like bullying. Which it is. And then four hours I had to wait there.
Amalia:What?
Qurat: Four hours later they bring me my stuff and they're like, all right, you're good to go. And I try not to post anything political on my socials. I try not to voice my opinion, my feelings, my grief online because it is a very real thing. Oftentimes I hear people talk about, Oh I don't see immigrant [00:33:00] community, like being very vocal about political issues. Or we don't see them a lot at protests.
Amalia:Right.
Qurat: And I had to like, you know, I was having this conversation with someone and I was like, well, I hope you see for not all, and I'm not speaking for all of them, but some of them, the stakes are very, very high.
Amalia:Yeah. I do think I want to touch a little bit on identity because we talked about when it comes to your name and how that changed. But, you know, identity is such a function of place and time. I feel like, you know, like I am perceived one way when I'm in Seattle. And if I go to another country, I'm perceived a completely different way. I haven't changed, but my skin color is perceived one way in the context of Seattle in a different way, like maybe in the context of even like New York City. And I'm wondering, like, how identity for yourself has changed through the process of seeking asylum in the United States.
Qurat: It's been fascinating to me because [00:34:00] I've always struggled with it. I've always struggled with my name. I would get self conscious because it's difficult to pronounce. Arabic names are difficult. I would just internalize all of that. I don't feel safe to kind of like openly talk about my thoughts, my opinions on a lot of things because I don't want people to kind of like tie that to my identity. You know, because I'm already being perceived as if, if you have a certain name and you have a certain look and you are from a certain part of the, part of the world, people make assumptions about your political affiliations, your religion, where you stand on certain issues. And that in itself is very terrifying to me.
Amalia:Mm hmm.
Qurat: And I fully haven't embraced it. My partner, they are [00:35:00] Caucasian, so even around their family and their friends, I feel like I've whitewashed myself so much because I don't want other people to feel uncomfortable when I'm internally just like dying. I'm just like, this is so uncomfortable for me. Even at work, I find myself having this inner battle all the time. I've had some conversations with some of my friends about code switching, but I feel like for me it's not even so much of code switching, it's really kind of like erasing the whole other code. Because I think it's just easier and safer for me to kind of just not even think about it. There is a phrase in Welsh and it's kind of like the gist is that longing and being homesick and longing for something that doesn't really even exist anymore. And I think that's how I feel about my identity. It's a very strong and a [00:36:00] powerful thing to say because I feel like some people are like, well, it's in your own control. But when society and the system has kind of slowly taken so many steps to kind of like forced me to feel bad about it and forced me to kind of like erase it in a way that it's, it's just easier that way. Like I'd rather not just defend it, defend it all the time. So, there's like this disenfranchised. pain and grief, it's really hard to explain.
Amalia:I won't say that I completely understand it because I've never lived your experience, but I feel like over the last, I don't know, decade or so, we have assigned terminology to some of the feelings that have always been there, or at least that I've experienced, always been in myself, that I just knew, but didn't [00:37:00] really know how to articulate or, and couldn't talk to them about how it felt to people maybe hadn't had my experience, my racial experience, my gender experience, right? Like so, you know, you use the term code switching, which I think is It's a tactic, right? But it's not the thing. And I think the thing is like, identity is such a personal, internal experience, but it's also tied to these external forces that we have no control over. And how you navigate your way through that, is sometimes strategic or tactic, you know, you're using tactics like code switching and you're, and you're being strategic about how you show up or how you don't show up or what you say or what you do and all those things, but the emotional exhausting part of it is always there and it's okay to like have it change day by day or have the grief or have the [00:38:00] emotion and you're still you.
Qurat: As you were talking, I don't know how, like, this quote by James Baldwin just popped in my head, and it's something around the winds of like how he had to, like, vomit so much, built for lack of better terms, that was like kind of fed to him in order for him to kind of, like, really, be. You know, Yeah. And I feel like I'm in that phase of kind of be willing to just throw up and then accept myself and my past and my present without any shame.
Amalia:Yeah. Oh, shame is such a big word and strong word. Yes. It's so easy to just stay in the shame space.
Qurat: And I don't even know where that shame comes from. Did I do anything wrong? No, I come from a beautiful culture of poets and it's, it's romantic and it's beautiful and the [00:39:00] food is amazing and people are warm and generous. But there's this struggle that those are the people who actually kicked me out as well, right? So it's like, it's that layer of like, I want to love that part of me, but that's the part that made me stay away from my family. And I wasn't even, I wasn't even aware of it around my parents in their last days. It's because had it not been for them, I probably wouldn't be here. But then when you move here, you're kind of like become the representative of..
Amalia:All the things
Qurat: All the things. So you make peace with it just because you want to show up as a model brown person.
Amalia:Yes.
Look at me, I don't have an accent. Look at me, I am able [00:40:00] to work here and I have a life here, I've built a life here, and I'm a model citizen going back to the same pamphlet that you get from Department of Homeland Security that don't do anything wrong, don't even get a speeding ticket, so.
Amalia:And I've achieved x, Y, and Z, and I am worthy of this that is being afforded to me, but at the detriment of closing off this other piece that also has disappointed me, but I love it.
Qurat: Right.
Amalia:And both can be true at the same time. And how does that not make us crazy? Honestly, like, that is crazy making.
Qurat: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And even at like Legal Voice, I struggle with it because the work we do is attached to my lived experience, but then the same identity thing comes in play. And when you are a woman of color in leadership, it's really hard to [00:41:00] explain why wouldn't you have identity crisis when the standard for you, even in the position of power that you are You're in is different than your white coworkers and your colleagues, and you have to spend time and emotional labor to kind of just first even advocate of to people that why you are here in the first place, whereas my colleagues, they already have it a head start because people are going to take them seriously and, uh, listen to them and appreciate their advice. So, that also I think plays a huge part in my identity crisis personally. You spend so much time and energy explaining. who you are and why you're here and why you should be taken seriously that you lose sight of like over why you were here in the first place.
Amalia:Yeah, I mean all that happens before any [00:42:00] work has even started.
Qurat: Exactly, exactly.
Amalia:It's wild.
Qurat is something else. I thought this conversation was going to go in one direction and it went in a completely opposite direction and I'm so inspired by their, I don't know, gumption and their Uh, perseverance, their thoughtfulness, but I also really, you know, I am no stranger to kind of straddling these cultural identities or learning how to code switch as you kind of go through your career. But Qurat's experience as an immigrant, an asylum seeker, and now as a leader in this legal fight for women's rights across the country is so inspiring. And I am just so thankful that I get to meet women like her to help me understand really what the whole damn pie even means for [00:43:00] me.